American Election Discussion

MrsGrey

simon, re Voter registration. ;ok In majority of states, I now realise. I didn't know that before. It is, as you say, open to abuse by drivers. ;wink

I still think claiming that such abuse was widespread (of which there's not really any evidence) and, more particularly, that it was done by illegal immigrants is wrong. It is rhetoric designed to foment hatred against immigrants.

As far as whether or not any newly-proposed measures might be racist or not... a law that makes it more difficult for one race to vote than another is racist. It would be racist in its effect, whatever the person/party bringing it forward might intend.

ASLEFshrugged

simonc

Alders I am happy to debate points but pipelines are something of a tangent from election discussions & i somehow appear to be an away supporter in the home fan section on this thread.

Mrs G - Darn those drivers ;wink I don't see how proving citizenship as a means of registration or providing identification at the time of voting is racist, but somehow it is, so I don't know how to fix the potential for fraud, both would seem to be necessary?
Do you have any suggestions?

MrsGrey

simonc said:

I don't see how proving citizenship as a means of registration or providing identification at the time of voting is racist, but somehow it is?

Who said it is?

simonc

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/29/politics/north-carolina-voter-id/
I am not sure what other forms of id were banned as there is no link but as a quick FYI anyone can get a photo ID at the DMV - if you want to drink or buy cigarettes you need a photo ID

PrestonHammer

Hahahaha

simonc

PrestonHammer said:

Hahahaha

Brilliant ;lol

OutcastLondoner

MrsGrey said:

I read this article and actually found it quite comforting.

Basically, it argues that we shouldn't worry too much about what he says, because most of it doesn't actually mean anything.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/16/a-guide-to-trump-speak-take-it-seriously-but-not-literally

;whistle

(To the writer, not MrsG)

SuzanneClaret

NEoldiron

On a more serious note:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/26/world/doomsday-clock-2017/
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/science/doomsday-clock-countdown-2017.html
http://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/trump-helps-push-doomsday-clock-closest-global-annihilation-cold-war-n712501

Over to you simonc, what do you think? ;hmm

SuzanneClaret

Torture is a really good way of getting coherent truthful information out of someone said no one ever.

IronHerb

But it still happens.

MrsGrey

SuzanneClaret said:

Torture is a really good way of getting coherent truthful information out of someone said no one ever.

Well, no.

Trump says it.

NEoldiron

And on a more humorous note:

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/dutch-video-spoofing-donald-trump-going-viral-2017-1

;lol

MrsGrey

I saw that, NE. It'se very funny ;ok

SuzanneClaret

MrsG

He does not count.

He is not a well man.

MrsGrey

simonc said:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/29/politics/north-carolina-voter-id/
I am not sure what other forms of id were banned as there is no link but as a quick FYI anyone can get a photo ID at the DMV - if you want to drink or buy cigarettes you need a photo ID

Wow. I read the full judgement of the court. These are the facts.

The N. Carolina legislature did research on the types of ID most commonly held by its voters, and broke down the stats according to race. The data showed some quite big differences in types of ID held by the different racial groups. Then N. Carolina specifically prohibited in its Bill any of the IDs more commonly held by African-American voters. And specified those types of ID most popular among white voters.

Seems to have a pretty clearly negative impact on one racial group.


So, as I said earlier up the page, Simon, even if the intent is not racist*, if the measure introduced disproportionately disadvantages one race, so that it becomes more difficult for them to vote compared to another race, it is racially discriminatory.

And leaving aside the moral issue, such a law is in any case (it seems to me) in breach of existing US law - Votng Rights Act s2:

No voting qualification or prerequisite to voting or
standard, practice, or procedure shall be imposed or
applied by any State or political subdivision in a
manner which results in a denial or abridgement of the
right of any citizen of the United States to vote on
account of race or color . . . .





*more on that later

ASLEFshrugged

ASLEFshrugged

PrestonHammer

Hahahaha

grey_til_I_dye

John Oliver is both funny and astute, but it makes me depressed, since he is clearly only preaching to the converted.

In spite of the demolition of the idea of widespread voter fraud (using irrefutable, pesky facts), and the clear evidence that voter restrictions are aimed at disadvantaging non-white voters rather than preventing non-existent fraud, no Trump supporter is going to care.

MrsGrey

MrsGrey said:

*more on that later

Now, let's look at the early voting window, in North Carolina.

I'm not sure what problem, or fraud, or whatever anomaly, was identified as being perpetrated in the early voting window. And why reducing it from 17 to 10 days would solve whatever that problem was. (Any info gratefully received on this topic maybe it was a cost thing ;hmm .)

Anyway.

N. Carolina did some data gathering. They collected information on who use the early-voting window, and at what points, then broke this information down by racial grups.

what periods of the 17-day early voting window. The data showed that whites used it much less than African-Americans overall. Also, that for the African-Americans this difference was particularly marked in the 1st week of that period, as well as the 2 Sundays - it was common for 'black' churches to organise buses on the 2 Sundays to take people to vote. I

So, what did North Carolina do?

Go on. Guess.

The bill legislated to reduce the length of the window - from 17 to 10 days.
It eliminated thereby one of the Sundays avalaible for early voting.

So tell me - what problem did that solve?

And did it CAUSE more problems for white voters or non-white voters.

simonc

Mrs G before i can comment i would like to know if the banned id's were picture id's the article conveniently does not say or provide a link, as i said you can get an id from the DMV so i dont see this as an issue.

NE i am glad you value my opinion, seems to me Obama has moved it the most recently over to you...
;wink

MrsGrey

simon, I didn't really bother with the article - l followed the link to the court judgement. That way, one doesn't get misled by reporting bias or selective facts.

I don't know the full range of which IDs were banned and preferred, but at least one form of 'banned' IDs was a photo ID, based on the text of the court document.

Dodger58

Is this Salmon & Sturgeon's nightmare scenario ...

simonc

Mrs G looks like in NC you are right i was wrong to confuse that judgement with Illinois where id is not required.
i dont see an issue with requiring all adults over 18 to have a valid government issued id to vote.
That just seems logical to me

chicagohammer

Dodger, that is one of those images that I wish we had the power to simply delete once seen, I happen to like salmon, in fact I was truly planning on salmon steaks this evening,

However

I think I will now have to revert to sausages, chips and beans

And there is nowt wrong with that, (as my mancunian father would say)

Dodger58

My apologies Chicago, I too love fish, haddock this evening

OutcastLondoner

chicagohammer said:

Dodger, that is one of those images that I wish we had the power to simply delete once seen, I happen to like salmon, in fact I was truly planning on salmon steaks this evening,

However

I think I will now have to revert to sausages, chips and beans

And there is nowt wrong with that, (as my mancunian father would say)

It's funny how all these people take so long to out themselves as northerners ;hmm

Time to build a wall, I think, Grey.

Dodger58

Born in Stockport, so perhaps guilty, but not sure how much influence I had on move to Essex when I was 6 months old !!