The UK is Out - New PM - and whither now for Article 50

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  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Mr & Mrs G. A simple question. Are you saying that absolutely no racists voted for Remain?

    Mrs G. The ideas of Western society, The EU being a big part of that, have caused the economic turmoil and the austerity it has engendered. The ideas of the free market and free movement have trampled over (and at the expense of) any other prevailing ideology valid or not. The EU has been a vast economic and social experiment which has led us and the rest of Europe to the edge of an abyss. I would say absolutely categorically that the mess that we are now faced with is due in large part to the blinkered approach of The EU. It has failed miserably to listen to peoples concerns for years and ploughed its own ideological furrow without ever stopping and thinking. This is why we are where we are at now, and not just in this country. If the EU is such a roaring success why are so many people disenchanted. This is not just a UK problem , it is Europe wide. The EU as it currently stands will disintegrate.

    NE. Have you thought just for one moment that the iceberg you talk of may be The EU.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    Madcap

    We can't know what is in people's hearts.

    I'm saying that I can't think how anyone with openly racist views could vote for anything other than Leave.

    It's not really that important anyway, since no one is saying that 'Leavers are racist', so it's a bit of a sideline.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    C&B. The EU is at the forefront of the free market liberal ideas that appear to have been so damaging. I concur fully with your appraisal of post Thatcherite Britain, but as members of The EU we have embraced this ideology whole heartedly, this push for globalisation, privatisation, free market economics has been at the forefront of The EU`s plan and we have been sucked along.
    At one time I thought that the ideals of The EU were great, but as The EU has got bigger and bigger, as its powers have become more centralised, as its "one size fits all" policies have trampled over alternate ideas and vulnerable Europeans, I have become increasingly frustrated. The EU should serve its people, but its people are revolting, it is no coincidence that the people most vociferous in support of The EU, big business and big money, are the ones most vocal in saving The EU as it currently stands. If nothing else that tells me that The EU is looking after the wrong people.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    MrsGrey said:

    However, there are plenty of Tristans, Jeremies and Charlies who work in the city, there are plenty of Mabels and Margarets who do sterling work for the church, there are loads of Anabelles, Camillas, and Henriettas, ladies who lunch but do little else,
    Interesting social stereotyping there, not to mention a fair bit of gender stereotyping too ;hmm

    It was worded in this way to show that you don`t have to be a shaven headed, card carrying thug to be a racist. Some of the most racist, selfish, small minded, unchristian people I have ever met would be considered (under popular norms) to be "decent" people. An old neighbour of ours "did wonderful work for the church" but I think on passing she will be decidedly disappointed at the pearly gates if God has anything about him at all.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited December 2016
    TheMadcapLaughs said:



    It was worded in this way to show that you don`t have to be a shaven headed, card carrying thug to be a racist.

    Strange as it may seem, I actually know that.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    grey_til_I_dye said:

    Madcap

    We can't know what is in people's hearts.

    I'm saying that I can't think how anyone with openly racist views could vote for anything other than Leave.

    It's not really that important anyway, since no one is saying that 'Leavers are racist', so it's a bit of a sideline.

    Mr G. 1 and 2 agree, number 3, you are correct, no one is saying this, but the "all racists would have voted leave" is plainly wrong. As simonc says, racism takes many forms and not all racists are overt. There are plenty of "decent" racists out there in middle England that would have undoubtedly voted remain for economic reasons but are no less racist than the shaven headed brigade. The phrase "all racists would have voted leave" is a deliberate slur against anyone that voted leave.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    MrsGrey said:

    TheMadcapLaughs said:



    It was worded in this way to show that you don`t have to be a shaven headed, card carrying thug to be a racist.

    Strange as it may seem, I actually know that.


    I didn`t doubt that for a minute Mrs G. I thought after 75 pages we had overcome the myth that all racists voted leave. All overt racists may well have voted leave, but there would be plenty of middle England racists that voted remain. I don`t know why the racist card keeps raising its head.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    grey_til_I_dye said:

    I can't think why someone with stated racist views would choose to remain in the EU, especially given the focus on immigration control in the run-up to the vote.

    I don`t think that being concerned over immigration has much to do with racism. I think they are two separate issues. Even Mrs Merkel has voiced concerns (over her own judgement) in having a totally "open door" policy. The anti immigration stance obviously appeals to racists which is a crying shame since as a topic immigration needs to be discussed openly and honestly without the word "racist" hovering overhead. I am a firm believer in open borders and free movement as concepts, but experience appears to show that (in the World we currently live) free and open borders seem to be both dangerous and divisive wherein the exact opposite should be true.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    The phrase "all racists would have voted leave" is a deliberate slur against anyone that voted leave.
    No, it really isn't, and I don't see how you get to that.

    I think that for some Leavers to ignore the racist element of the Leave vote (and parts of its campaign) is either naive or disingenuous, and using the 'well your saying we're all racist' card is a cheap rhetorical trick with no basis in fact.
  • NEoldironNEoldiron
    Interesting piece here:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38227674
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Mr G, I have and do acknowledge the racist element in the leave vote. But "all racists voted leave" is plainly an incorrect statement, but one that is used regularly by remainers (not just on here). A statement that has no value whatsoever, but is regularly used, has one purpose, and that is to denigrate by association. If you believe the statement to be correct and factual then fine. If you have any doubt as to the validity and accuracy of the statement, why use it.
    The statement seems to be a popular one and one that goes unchallenged when quite obviously the statement is a nonsense.
    And please show me which leavers have chosen to ignore the racist element of the leave campaign.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    I disagree that it is a nonsense, and I'm not even sure it's an overstatement.

    However, I'm not going to discuss it further, as I see it as a peripheral issue that I have had my say on. You've seen what I've written and will have to be satisfied, or otherwise, with that.
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    grey_til_I_dye said:

    I disagree that it is a nonsense, and I'm not even sure it's an overstatement.

    However, I'm not going to discuss it further, as I see it as a peripheral issue that I have had my say on. You've seen what I've written and will have to be satisfied, or otherwise, with that.

    But what am I going to do with the rest of my day. Bored now.
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    Do you know anything about the theory of anarchism? ;wink
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    ;lol
  • TheMadcapLaughsTheMadcapLaughs
    Well its funny you should say that......................... ;lol
  • IronHerbIronHerb
    Nooooooooooo
  • NEoldironNEoldiron
    Definitely a good reason to leave the EU
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38233852

    Oh, wait a minute, let me actually read that ;hmm
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited December 2016
    The government amendment has passed by 461 votes to 89 - a majority of 372.
    Labour + Lib Dems. Sold their birthright for a mess of pottage.

    A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a credible Opposition. ;doh

    #shameonthem
  • NEoldironNEoldiron
    Say hello to the Brexiteers' messiah:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/10/arron-banks-man-who-bought-brexit

  • OutcastLondonerOutcastLondoner
    He was on Twitter yesterday trying to tell Mary Beard, one of the most prominent classicists, that he knew more about Roman history than her. (Then couldn't answer any of her questions).
  • SuzanneClaretSuzanneClaret
    MrsGrey said:

    The government amendment has passed by 461 votes to 89 - a majority of 372.
    Labour + Lib Dems. Sold their birthright for a mess of pottage.

    A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a credible Opposition. ;doh

    #shameonthem

    Gary Linikers twitter feed.

    The only current credible opposition.
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    outcast ;lol

    suz ;ok (And in this instance, Ken Clarke ;puzzled )
  • SuzanneClaretSuzanneClaret
    Ken Clarke!

    We are doomed..... ;doh
  • grey_til_I_dyegrey_til_I_dye
    edited December 2016


  • YeoldhammerYeoldhammer
    MrsGrey said:

    The government amendment has passed by 461 votes to 89 - a majority of 372.
    Labour + Lib Dems. Sold their birthright for a mess of pottage.

    A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a credible Opposition. ;doh

    #shameonthem

    or they respected the referendum result ?
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited December 2016
    No imo.

    The issue isn't about respecting the result, it is about holding the government to account for how it goes about implementing it, and securing a voice/representation for all their constituents (those who voted leave and those who voted remain) in that process. The former is the job of the opposition, and the latter is the job of all MPs.

  • YeoldhammerYeoldhammer
    but they did that by securing the amendment for a detailed plan ?
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    What 'detailed' plan?
  • MrsGreyMrsGrey
    edited December 2016
    Like this:

    Dear Parliament. Please see below our plan. Thanks. The Government.

    Government Plan

    Send article 50 notification - end March.
    Meetings with EU exit comnittee - April onwards.
    Aim: get best deal possible while securing control over immigration.
    Deadline: Christmas 2018.
    Jan - March 2019, get 'big Bill' through Parliament.


    ;beer
This discussion has been closed.