The 'hard Brexit' or maybe 'clean Brexit' would be a better way of describing it only came about as a thing because the UK explicitly ruled out ANY free movement ... there had been talk of various 'half-in' trade/customs arrangements which the EU hadn'r ruled out as long as the UK accepted a compromise on free movement.
Now that Theresa May has made a hash of all that and basically is going into the negotiations with a weakened position (from what was imo already quite a weak base), who knows.
I see that the French President has said the door's still open for a U-turn.
I voted to leave but a year on, I think we would be better off staying in. This government have made a hash of it so far, there is far too much that needs changing and we will only get our pants pulled down by other countries when it comes to negotiating new trade deals.
However letting in over 300.000 people every year has got to stop and the next government has to get a handle on it.
Preston, that's at the higher end of the estimate (and doesn't take account of the some additional 120,000 that leave).
And I know we've been through this before, but (whatever the numbers are 'net') ... why has it got to stop?
I haven't heard a convincing (and factually supported) argument why it is a bad thing.
Nor have I heard a convincing (or factually supported) argument of what actual number would be the optimal one: To me, from what I've read, the numbers of what are OK and not OK are quite random. It's just that a big number sounds bad, a smaller number sounds better, and a really small number must, by definition, be the best.
(I'm not expecting you to necessarily try to make the case - as I say, we've been round these houses before - but I'm just reiterating one the reasons why I voted Remain 1st time round: on the 'too many immigrants' argument, nobody succeeded in convincing me ;ok )
For me there are far too many people living in the same place, London. They have demolished the old Met Police college and are now building on that. They have demolished the old Newspaper library and have built on that and the old Colindale hospital site is now more housing. I estimate there will now be another 10 to 20.000 more people living right on top of where I am.
I am moving, although that is because I still live at home with my parents and they want to be nearer my sisters kids. I can't afford to buy my own place and I don't fancy house sharing with people I don't know. So we are moving to somewhere just outside Manchester, where hopefully it will be a bit quieter, I hope...hahaha
Some people don't mind living like sardines, I'm not one of them.
Preston, I got out of London some years back. I like to visit, but it is all a bit overcrowded and chaotic for me for full-time living. I like my periods of peace and tranquillity!
But to your main point: shortage of affordable housing in the South East, linked to over-concentration of jobs and growth in London, a consequence of the move to a service economy...
All things that can be (and should be) tackled ... but for me, the cause isn't too much immigration and the solution isn't stopping immigration.
I have always felt we may not leave because in life very few deals are done in which both parties lose, and brexit would definitely be one of those. Due to Dave's disastrous attempt at managing his own party we were left with a political problem of magnitude which was a separation from the EU which would cause devastation yet had been sold to the electorate as a positive thing. Once the lies are seen through which is not quite yet but getting there the environment for a deal may arise in which the EU offer us a significant control of our immigration in return for something else to compensate ( rebate relinquishment perhaps?), then both parties would save face and a new referendum could be called and won, there would be a commotion from the usual right wing press but it would be limited because the more mid ground brexiters will not fancy what was beginning to become a reality.
I do wonder however if as time goes by the EU may fancy us out, if able to share out our financial services industry and make an example of us we may be more use out than in.
My instinct is that the problem with immigration is that our population has grown but austerity did not allow essential public services to be funded at even existing levels let alone grow to accommodate the increased demand. Once people get out of associating tax rises as bad and move to them being associated with better services we can move forward. Corbyns exposure of just how low our corporation tax is compared to the rest of Europe came as a shock to me, surely that is a good place to start raising a few pounds. It could even be structured more like personal tax to shield small and starting businesses. So maybe drop it to 15% under a certain level and then raise to 20% and then finally 25% at the highest rate ( still less than most of Europe). The personal taxation needs moving to 15k to ensure the lowest earners pay less tax and we can play about with rates at the top to bring in the shortfall, whilst it is the working tax credit system which makes us attractive for immigration and that is the biggest job to sort out. But two years spent redesigning our tax and benefit system will yield a lot more than two years spent leaving the EU.
After Gerald Kaufmann's death Ken Clarke has become the "Father of the House", the oldest MP. Corbyn congratulated him by saying
He seemed to be to be a well established MP when I entered the House 34 years ago. And I've never quite forgotten the image of the member for Rushcliffe in the tea room wearing Hush Puppies, eating bacon sandwiches, drinking super strong lager and carrying a cigar while taking a break from a debate on healthy living
Frankie Boyle - UKIP have tried to reposition themselves cos they got they wanted , they got out of the EU. Nobody cares about your other positions, its like hearing about ISIS's position on wheelie bins
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I have asked my wife when interviewing what they judged a good command of english and she said to have a reasonable conversation with someone in english.
She spoke very highly of the Philippian nurses she interviewed saying they spoke very good english,were highly qualified and were hard workers.
That's interesting. So they weren't required to have formal language qualifications?
;hmm I don't think that can be right, because they would need a visa, and the Home Office has language requirements that are linked to actual exams and certificates and stuff. Maybe the interviewing your wife did was to select nurses they wanted to employ, and all the 'official' stuff came after.
They had to take about six written tests before they even got to the interview and it was very strict When i said about qualifications i was talking about nursing not language qualifications and even if they had passed the interview they would still have had to get an home office visa before they left their country. The answer is yes they did have to have language qualifications.
The State Opening of Parliament was due to take place next Monday which coincided with the Order of the Garter Ceremony at Windsor, an event that the Queen apparently enjoys and she was less than happy when she had to cancel that in order to give the Queen's Speech.
Its now been announced that the State Opening will be next Wednesday but Royal Ascot starts on Tuesday and rumours are that the Queen is in no mood to miss any of the racing.
If she doesn't turn up to the State Opening then the Lord Chancellor David Livington will have to give the Queen's Speech.
Laura at 91 years of age I will be impressed if many of us would have the energy to do either! I have never got the whole what an easy life the queen has considering the average person is complaining about the retirement age increasing to 68!
There was a very good interview with Sir Keir Starmer QC (Labours Shadow Secretary of State for Exiting the EU0 on Andrew Marr this morning that would be of interest to all if you can get to see/read it. On the two main topics he was interviewed on, when challenged on the PM's EU Exit mandate he admitted there was little difference between the Conservatives and Labours approach as all the 'half measures soft Brexit' options had been ruled out by the EU (no single market access, no free movement of people etc.), the bill at the end regarding legislation would make all EU legislation UK legislation (if it wasn't already) so there would be no lost rights, the only real difference would be the deals at the and as Labour had different ideas of what sort of deals would be in place post exit.
On the Tower Block fire Andrew Marr presented and read from a series of recommendations from a report presented to the Government in 2000. Keir Starmer admitted and agreed that on that occasion and others when Labour were last in power and since under the LibDem/Con Gov't and David Cameron's Gov't when recommendations had been made, they had not been acted on - therefore ALL parties were responsible and accountable for the deaths and injuries.
I must admit he came across much better and more sensibly in the discussion than many of the other politicians of all the other parties - if he is in charge of Labour come the next election (which won't happen until about a year after the EU Exit) I think they will win it, if he had been in charge now I think they would have won it as well.
re the fire thing - was that the recommendations after the Camberwell fire?
Because (a) the situations were very different in terms of both the design of the structure and the findings in terms of how the existing regulations had not been complied with, (b) blame was allocated in the Camberwell fire as negligence, pretty much - the main fault was that the existing regs were breached, and the safety checks didn't pick that up, not that the regs themselves were inadequate and (c) it's not yet been shown that those 2000 recommendations, had they been implemented, by the Tory and Tory/LibDem govts, whose responsibility it was, would have made any difference at Grenfell, seeing as we don't yet know exactly what went wrong in this latest case.
he bill at the end regarding legislation would make all EU legislation UK legislation (if it wasn't already) so there would be no lost right
Well, for the time being, until the govt set about rolling them back.
Plus, the rights IN LEGISLATION will continue ... but what about rights not conferred by legislation, but by other means such as treaties, EU Directives with direct effect (which particularly pertain to rights of residency), etc?
(c) it's not yet been shown that those 2000 recommendations, had they been implemented, by the Tory and Tory/LibDem govts, whose responsibility it was, would have made any difference at Grenfell, seeing as we don't yet know exactly what went wrong in this latest case.
MrsGrey, I would make the point as you omit it that Labour were in power from 1997 to 2010 so in fairness (although not shown as you say that the 2000 recommendations would of made any difference) a Labour government with the power to act until 2010 didn't act so to say Tories/LibDem failed to act is misleading as Labour didn't act in that period either so it's fair to say all political parties failed to act and are equally guilty of a failing the people?
On the same Andrew Marr Show Phillip Hammond claimed that the cladding that caused the fire to spread so rapidly is banned in the UK so either it was put up by the contractors illegally and the management organisation - set up by the Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea - were negligent in allowing them to do so or it was attached in full knowledge of the management organisation and they are also criminally liable.
He also claimed that sprinklers may not have helped despite every fire safety expert who has been interviewed in the last few days saying that they would cos he's Chancellor of the Exchequer and obviously knows better. Both the inquest into the fire at Lakanal Tower in 2009 and the fire at Shirley Towers in 2010 recommended that sprinklers should be fitted to all old tower blocks. According to the Mirror out of 2925 council owned tower blocks only 18 have had sprinkler systems installed since then.
There have been claims that the lack of sprinklers was a result of the Tory austerity policies but many sources suggest that K&C council is sitting on a surplus of around £300m and recently spent around £25m pedestrianizing Exhibition Road so they're certainly not short of a bob or two.
I agree with regard Keir Starmer as he does seem to be a common sense politician and they are always my favourite. I think we would have to wait and see how he fares in the coming couple of years as he will likely be thrust forward within Labour and so we will get to see a more complete picture.
I am a little uncomfortable with the political fall out of the Grenfall tragedy as I think everyone needs wait until facts are known before casting blame. It may turn out that everyone's first conclusion is spot on but it could just as likely be way off the mark. I feel however that political gain should not motivate any side when such tragedy strikes. I don't necessarily imagine that were Labour in govt from 2010 that the tragedy would have been averted, These terrible things happen but fortunately very rarely and we learn from them hopefully.
Regarding brexit I just don't see how we can negotiate anything resembling the position were in prior to the referendum with all the benefits and opt outs and vetos.
The EU hold all the cards and Davies will be in a room and hopefully the EU negotiator will put it straight from the beginning and say to him, ok David, we know you have given yourself the biggest political problem that any nation has done in a long long while, you have nothing to offer us that we need, some we would like for sure, but not need, as lets be clear all business which goes to UK will naturally be inclined to look for sourcing within EU once you have gone anyhow which will bring a surge in closer existing EU co -operation. Your Financial services industry which contributes a large tax take we will be taking anyhow through natural migration and later legislation. Your military which you may have felt was your final bargaining chip is not what you thought as we have only one existential threat which is Russia, should this become a real issue you know you could never defend against them anyhow and so do they, were any conflict to come that far only the US could intervene, so lets not pretend you have that chip. So I ask you to stop spouting nonsense for your local press and get real, speak to us with respect and we will do the same to you. Otherwise you will become cut off between the EU and the US and look very isolated to everyone, you make nothing much and will pretty soon be a tax haven run by media moguls and suffering mass public unrest due to the cuts in public services as your economy begins to fall quickly.
If we are lucky they will allow us to re assess leaving, as in my view, otherwise I think we are pretty much finished for a generation or two. I have seen leave friends slowly give up on most arguments regarding any possible benefit, certainly none that remotely outweigh the risks.
laura, re your earlier comments - yes, I appear to be getting my 2000s and my 2009 fire/2010 recommendations mixed up. I was thinking of the Lakanal fire recommendations made in 2010, which are the ones where apparently the (Tory) govt committed to review section B (fire safety) of the building regs but hasn't. ;ok
imo, the constant cuts to the civil service have left too few people trying to do too much, so that stuff like this review gets pushed down to a lower priority.
Comments
Now that Theresa May has made a hash of all that and basically is going into the negotiations with a weakened position (from what was imo already quite a weak base), who knows.
I see that the French President has said the door's still open for a U-turn.
However letting in over 300.000 people every year has got to stop and the next government has to get a handle on it.
And I know we've been through this before, but (whatever the numbers are 'net') ... why has it got to stop?
I haven't heard a convincing (and factually supported) argument why it is a bad thing.
Nor have I heard a convincing (or factually supported) argument of what actual number would be the optimal one: To me, from what I've read, the numbers of what are OK and not OK are quite random. It's just that a big number sounds bad, a smaller number sounds better, and a really small number must, by definition, be the best.
(I'm not expecting you to necessarily try to make the case - as I say, we've been round these houses before - but I'm just reiterating one the reasons why I voted Remain 1st time round: on the 'too many immigrants' argument, nobody succeeded in convincing me ;ok )
I am moving, although that is because I still live at home with my parents and they want to be nearer my sisters kids. I can't afford to buy my own place and I don't fancy house sharing with people I don't know. So we are moving to somewhere just outside Manchester, where hopefully it will be a bit quieter, I hope...hahaha
Some people don't mind living like sardines, I'm not one of them.
But to your main point: shortage of affordable housing in the South East, linked to over-concentration of jobs and growth in London, a consequence of the move to a service economy...
All things that can be (and should be) tackled ... but for me, the cause isn't too much immigration and the solution isn't stopping immigration.
I do wonder however if as time goes by the EU may fancy us out, if able to share out our financial services industry and make an example of us we may be more use out than in.
My instinct is that the problem with immigration is that our population has grown but austerity did not allow essential public services to be funded at even existing levels let alone grow to accommodate the increased demand. Once people get out of associating tax rises as bad and move to them being associated with better services we can move forward. Corbyns exposure of just how low our corporation tax is compared to the rest of Europe came as a shock to me, surely that is a good place to start raising a few pounds. It could even be structured more like personal tax to shield small and starting businesses. So maybe drop it to 15% under a certain level and then raise to 20% and then finally 25% at the highest rate ( still less than most of Europe). The personal taxation needs moving to 15k to ensure the lowest earners pay less tax and we can play about with rates at the top to bring in the shortfall, whilst it is the working tax credit system which makes us attractive for immigration and that is the biggest job to sort out. But two years spent redesigning our tax and benefit system will yield a lot more than two years spent leaving the EU.
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.
I have asked my wife when interviewing what they judged a good command of english and she said to have a reasonable conversation with someone in english.
She spoke very highly of the Philippian nurses she interviewed saying they spoke very good english,were highly qualified and were hard workers.
That's interesting. So they weren't required to have formal language qualifications?
;hmm I don't think that can be right, because they would need a visa, and the Home Office has language requirements that are linked to actual exams and certificates and stuff. Maybe the interviewing your wife did was to select nurses they wanted to employ, and all the 'official' stuff came after.
(Thinking aloud ;biggrin )
They had to take about six written tests before they even got to the interview and it was very strict
When i said about qualifications i was talking about nursing not language qualifications and even if they had passed the interview they would still have had to get an home office visa before they left their country.
The answer is yes they did have to have language qualifications.
Its now been announced that the State Opening will be next Wednesday but Royal Ascot starts on Tuesday and rumours are that the Queen is in no mood to miss any of the racing.
If she doesn't turn up to the State Opening then the Lord Chancellor David Livington will have to give the Queen's Speech.
He was appointed to the job on Sunday.
It's a hard life.....reading a speech or going to the races ;doh
(Metaphorically, of course. ;wink )
On the Tower Block fire Andrew Marr presented and read from a series of recommendations from a report presented to the Government in 2000. Keir Starmer admitted and agreed that on that occasion and others when Labour were last in power and since under the LibDem/Con Gov't and David Cameron's Gov't when recommendations had been made, they had not been acted on - therefore ALL parties were responsible and accountable for the deaths and injuries.
I must admit he came across much better and more sensibly in the discussion than many of the other politicians of all the other parties - if he is in charge of Labour come the next election (which won't happen until about a year after the EU Exit) I think they will win it, if he had been in charge now I think they would have won it as well.
Because (a) the situations were very different in terms of both the design of the structure and the findings in terms of how the existing regulations had not been complied with, (b) blame was allocated in the Camberwell fire as negligence, pretty much - the main fault was that the existing regs were breached, and the safety checks didn't pick that up, not that the regs themselves were inadequate and (c) it's not yet been shown that those 2000 recommendations, had they been implemented, by the Tory and Tory/LibDem govts, whose responsibility it was, would have made any difference at Grenfell, seeing as we don't yet know exactly what went wrong in this latest case.
I will try to find a 'watch again' ;ok
Plus, the rights IN LEGISLATION will continue ... but what about rights not conferred by legislation, but by other means such as treaties, EU Directives with direct effect (which particularly pertain to rights of residency), etc?
MrsGrey,
I would make the point as you omit it that Labour were in power from 1997 to 2010 so in fairness (although not shown as you say that the 2000 recommendations would of made any difference) a Labour government with the power to act until 2010 didn't act so to say Tories/LibDem failed to act is misleading as Labour didn't act in that period either so it's fair to say all political parties failed to act and are equally guilty of a failing the people?
He also claimed that sprinklers may not have helped despite every fire safety expert who has been interviewed in the last few days saying that they would cos he's Chancellor of the Exchequer and obviously knows better. Both the inquest into the fire at Lakanal Tower in 2009 and the fire at Shirley Towers in 2010 recommended that sprinklers should be fitted to all old tower blocks. According to the Mirror out of 2925 council owned tower blocks only 18 have had sprinkler systems installed since then.
There have been claims that the lack of sprinklers was a result of the Tory austerity policies but many sources suggest that K&C council is sitting on a surplus of around £300m and recently spent around £25m pedestrianizing Exhibition Road so they're certainly not short of a bob or two.
I am a little uncomfortable with the political fall out of the Grenfall tragedy as I think everyone needs wait until facts are known before casting blame. It may turn out that everyone's first conclusion is spot on but it could just as likely be way off the mark. I feel however that political gain should not motivate any side when such tragedy strikes. I don't necessarily imagine that were Labour in govt from 2010 that the tragedy would have been averted, These terrible things happen but fortunately very rarely and we learn from them hopefully.
The EU hold all the cards and Davies will be in a room and hopefully the EU negotiator will put it straight from the beginning and say to him, ok David, we know you have given yourself the biggest political problem that any nation has done in a long long while, you have nothing to offer us that we need, some we would like for sure, but not need, as lets be clear all business which goes to UK will naturally be inclined to look for sourcing within EU once you have gone anyhow which will bring a surge in closer existing EU co -operation. Your Financial services industry which contributes a large tax take we will be taking anyhow through natural migration and later legislation. Your military which you may have felt was your final bargaining chip is not what you thought as we have only one existential threat which is Russia, should this become a real issue you know you could never defend against them anyhow and so do they, were any conflict to come that far only the US could intervene, so lets not pretend you have that chip. So I ask you to stop spouting nonsense for your local press and get real, speak to us with respect and we will do the same to you. Otherwise you will become cut off between the EU and the US and look very isolated to everyone, you make nothing much and will pretty soon be a tax haven run by media moguls and suffering mass public unrest due to the cuts in public services as your economy begins to fall quickly.
If we are lucky they will allow us to re assess leaving, as in my view, otherwise I think we are pretty much finished for a generation or two. I have seen leave friends slowly give up on most arguments regarding any possible benefit, certainly none that remotely outweigh the risks.
imo, the constant cuts to the civil service have left too few people trying to do too much, so that stuff like this review gets pushed down to a lower priority.